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Post by Crimson D on Jun 18, 2008 16:57:45 GMT -5
You've misinterpreted my request as a demand. There's no need to be so defense about it.
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Jun 19, 2008 3:40:22 GMT -5
OOC: Pelch, "Perhaps I am just being defensive. I have good reason. You made this statement: "Are the retro's too good to give us a log or even a small peace of one?"
"You made a provocative and challenging statement to our guests. I gave you an answer to that statement and explained WHY this was not a good statement to make. Now you tell me I'm too defensive and misunderstand. Perhaps, but I have my reasons."
"Now I am going to ask you to explain to me your last two comments which I consider to be not well thought out."
"I'll even do you the courtesy of explaining my provocative last remark.
"Over the past year we have had people hacking our SR sites. I'm sure you are well aware of some of these incidents, right? We've seen everything from porno to spam bots."
"During the same period others have been attempting to locate and hack the Retro's servers. Fatman has noted the looking and searching and as a result has taken actions to prevent others from discovering anything that might be critical to giving them the information they so obviously want. This has caused him an inordinate amount of time to insure his own security and takes away from his work and gaming. To say he is not happy about this is to put it mildly."
"On the Quotefile someone has been systematically and methodically downgrading any comments that have to do with the Retro's. Other comments not related to them have been mysteriously upgraded by automated systems. This has caused Griffjon some trouble, which he has also noted in his comments on his page. As a result his site has also suffered from less quotes and visitors. This affects his financial situation. Luckily even downgraded by these automated scripts the Retro's seem to be fairly popular. "
"I point out to you that there are some people out there who through jealousy, egotism, or just plain cussedness, that enjoy being butt heads. For their own reasons they would like to see this 'FREE' site go away. Maybe they have their own sites and the less popular we are... I'm sure you see the obvious. Maybe they have something in mind less obvious but just as malicious. No matter what it is they seem to see this site, not as a resource or a fun place to spend some time, but as competition they would like to have go away."
"Now while you may LIKE to see the logs, to see the Retro's at their WORST, for innocent reasons, I am sure that our 'competition' would rather like to have a larger amount of dirt and information on our guests. You see the Retro's as such were pretty much exclusive to this site and the Quotefile until someone started to abuse the guest privileges so they couldn't post. Rather than set this site up for more hacking the Retro's dared not take overt logon's that could be hacked, linked to them and lead back to their servers."
"So yes, you may call my statement defensive although the last statement I made was more explanatory than defensive, and now maybe you can understand why I am going to push you for an explanation since you obviously did not get the picture."
"It is NOT past the realm of possibility that some of these aforementioned people would get logon's to this site in an attempt to acquire more information and do greater harm and of course, this is probably the best site to do that wouldn't you say? Have you noted that by having to close down the 'guest' services we are not as popular as we were?"
"So either you were rude and thoughtless OR?"
"I give you the chance to tell me why I shouldn't BE defensive and how I am misunderstanding this situation? Let us say that if I misunderstand, I have my reasons."
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Post by wolflet59 on Jun 19, 2008 12:26:11 GMT -5
an answer to the phony town - there has been one built as an observation- research facility. Files downloaded to Dom after hopefully duping the scientists into believing their failsafes had cut in. Krondax diddnt like the Japcorp stamp on the purloined transmission helmet. Freddy got a minor payout for this.
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Post by Braddoc on Jun 19, 2008 13:04:13 GMT -5
Minor in terms of pay..a bit more in terms of loot though..
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Post by wolflet59 on Jun 19, 2008 13:19:29 GMT -5
minor in terms of loot too for what it represented - the originals were all passed to Dom if he wanted to take it further.. you dont spark up investigation into your benefactor's property.
Benefactor ? - after what 'control' has said...
There are copies of the files though.
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Post by Braddoc on Jun 19, 2008 13:22:49 GMT -5
I was talking about the skillsofts you landed rather than the files (which you did a copy too I think) and the other high tech "crap" you guys found
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Post by wolflet59 on Jun 19, 2008 13:31:31 GMT -5
cranks and neerdowells hit chatboards and sites like this - for pure perversity - flexing their molluscs to see what can be done. I doubt if the retros are known outside of this site so why would an outside agency wish to target them (if of course they do exist!)
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Post by wolflet59 on Jun 19, 2008 13:38:52 GMT -5
hey that was a bundle of skillsofts - heisted and retained as a 'little extra bonus' compared to the feeble pay we got from Dom for securing mind activation equipment - it was a heavy amount!
the phone log and links to other corps should have been juicy dirt too - could be a reason 'control' was brought in..
merely one of many ops Dom was funding so we cant suddenly jump to conclusions based on the actions of a couple of minor group actions...
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Post by Braddoc on Jun 19, 2008 13:48:31 GMT -5
Yeah dirt pay..just like that first case where he dodged usfrom that bonus money..well you guys; I went and got mine..
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Post by wolflet59 on Jun 19, 2008 15:54:05 GMT -5
what would runners do with good corp cred eh? just blow it on useful stuff - better to 'pay em mean keep em keen'
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Post by Braddoc on Jun 19, 2008 16:13:49 GMT -5
Yeah..or invest it on something..only to use it later on for yet another thing..Hmm..should discuss my cut too..
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Post by Crimson D on Jun 19, 2008 18:28:44 GMT -5
One thing that has caused me many a argument in the past is that text does not convey emotion. Braddoc can tell you i'm a joker and a lot of things i do post can easily be seen as insults. : "Are the retro's too good to give us a log or even a small peace of one?" was meant to be rhetorical. Like how many roads must a boy walk down before he becomes man kinda thing. You had every right to react the way you did. In the end i guess I was both rude and thoughtless. This was not my intent but that's what seems to have come of it.
People see things differently. Since this seems to have caused some ripples I express my regret.
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Jun 20, 2008 4:03:28 GMT -5
OOC: Pelch, "Crimson D, I am well aware that text does not convey emotion having made that statement several times myself on these very boards. That is why I forced the issue and gave you a chance to explain yourself after making my case. You did so and I appreciate that. I'm sorry I had to force this to this point and you were the one that got caught."
"So, personally, I feel that I owe YOU personally, further explanation. Let me greatly expand."
"Lately, you are not the only one on this board that seems to feel the need to make provocative and insulting statements. You were just 'called' on it because I have seen this trend increasing of late. I find the trend disturbing. Even as I read this thread I see another:
"I doubt if the retros are known outside of this site so why would an outside agency wish to target them (if of course they do exist!)"
"There are many other examples if one cares to look back in various threads. I won't include them all now. I won't even have to pull ones out of my private mail. I'll just take the latest ill conceived one that everyone can see so they can see what I am referring to."
"So now the Retro's, who have supported this site as guests do not exist and someone (I guess that means me, right?) is a liar. Let's call this ill-mannered and thoughtless statement exactly what it is. I suspect I could present reams of evidence and you would still have doubts. It's a fools game if you already have your mind so firmly set. I shall make a small attempt to show Wolflet he has all the evidence he really needs if he would just not IGNORE what he has available."
"The fact that Mr. J went to the Retros and asked them to come as guests means nothing to you? The fact they didn't seek him out and weasel their way in shows such a craft, guile and low cunning with this all pervasive plot as to boggle the mind. They got in the door because they somehow set Mr. J. up to have him invite them after more than two years notoriety on the Quote file?"
"Don't you think that chain of cause and effect was a bit much? Such statements were made during the Barbarian incident. Outside proof that the Retros pre-existed before the boards. You ignore that? So be it. Read back and make your case."
"I find that people seem to disregard the KNOWN own facts and as I stated before the known HISTORY. I try to teach this in my threads to read back and place things in context, not just work off your theories day to day. I'm sorry that one of my players STILL has not learned this."
"Let's face it, people are lazy. They don't look back to confirm if their opinionated statements are accurate. It's all just my view and my opinion. As Pelch I stated in the thread to his buddy Mao, their is nothing WRONG with having an opinion. It is the fact that you think the rest of us have to have it as well that is irritating. Especially when it has no fact to back it up, it becomes just another FOOLS opinion. If you can't add to your opinion with historical fact you are nothing more than a tool."
"Look back in this very thread, especially in the early days when the Retros were more obvious, Doc Patterson even gave you a link to one of their other games from the past upon request when asked. Even then they were pretty popular on other sites and pretty well known in the SR community. That's also based on guest statements and even among our own people who made such statements in this very thread."
"Now they all LIED? What a conspiracy! Bet they were the guys behind the grassy knoll, huh? Perhaps they were also the guys who did the World Trade Center for Bush. Anyone can and will make a statement, the problem is people won't CHECK the statements and they soon believe any garbage, any fool spouts."
It's blindingly obvious to anyone who can find his ass with both hands in broad daylight that they were pretty well known before the Pro-Boards. Why should that have changed now, according to some people and now no one knows them? Read back and try NOT to ignore the facts. You're saying now Patterson had that old link pre-made? Looked pretty spur of the moment to me. You now say no one but us knows them? This very thread in the early days gives you evidence that directly contradicts your blythe statement."
"Then again according to you none of them exist, so no harm done, correct? Can't insult someone who doesn't exist so it's all right to do so. It's all an elaborate shell game, like the Barbarian incident where Mr. J . made his view clear to all. Patterson may find that amusing when I tell him. I know he doesn't follow this thread much anymore. Enough evidence? I doubt it so why continue? Your mind is obviously made up."
"I find this current trend on the boards to treat some players and some guests and even some GM's with insulting and provocative comments disturbing, as I already stated. I have no problem with character and between character insults, but I do have a problem with insulting and provocative insults to the players behind the characters. It is one of my MAJOR rules. Again, this is something I have stated numerous times. So if some of you have the goal of driving off the gaming competition, you seem to be succeeding, admirably. I commend you on your diligence to failure."
"The problem with driving off the good competition though is that it gets real boring to play. Sort of takes the fun and spontaneity out of the game. I like logging on and seeing someone mess with my character, even when they just barf on them. I enjoy playing jokes back. Sure it's not everyones cup of poison, but then I don't ask everyone to get involved. I just ask that they read through first to see what the game is like. If they want to try they can and if they don't like it they can leave and no hard feelings."
"I remind you lot of another of my rules, When you do this the game does not become fun for anyone."
"Have some people become so jealous and petty that they will do this to any player they think might be doing better than themselves? It certainly appears so."
"Now I am going to make another statement that I want you to consider carefully. Let's say for the sake of argument that Wolflet and others who have made similar statements are 100% correct, despite the evidence. Let's just base it all on his comment and ignore ANY conflicting evidence. Now let's take it to the bottom line."
"I ask you what difference does it make if the Retros are some elaborate scam by the aforementioned Devlin Krass? Have they harmed the site? Outside of making comments, lending their history, humor and viewpoints, they haven't done anything to hurt anyone."
"So, while you might think they don't exist, privily, why wreck a good thing with defeatism and negativity? Ego? Arrogance? Should we look more closely at what such people are doing in the same light? I have decided that maybe we SHOULD turn over a few rocks here and see what crawls out into the light. So yes, I am challenging your opinions because I DON'T like the trends I am seeing!"
"Let's take it further. What did the so called mind behind the Retros gain that they didn't already have? I say the so-called mind because there must be a mastermind somewhere who perpetrated this hoax on us for some rascally and nefarious purpose. The phrase, don't look a gift horse in the mouth seems to be apt here. Conspiracy Theory, arrogance and smarm seem to be the watch words lately. A sign of the times I guess. The problem is can YOU stand the same scrutiny into your motives? Don't bring it if you can't deal with it."
"One of the things I do and am known for is that I will not hide disruptions behind the scenes. I have a History and Learning thread. I let the guests and lurkers see exactly what is happening. Even when it is a disagreement. Now I am going to take it up a notch."
"To the Retros that I KNOW are playing on this site and staying low key: I will not break your cover. I will leave it up to you if you wish to continue here or want to withdraw completely. If your contributions are not welcome or appreciated I see no reason for you to stay where your not wanted."
"As for me, personally? I will not make another post in room six until I see a change in attitude toward our guests AND ESPECIALLY to our fellow players. I may answer comments here but they will be related to this problem only. Until the players and people of this site can convince me that it will be fun to be here I see no further reason to waste my time dealing with those who seem bent on making others unwelcome or that can't enjoy a game win or lose. I have no hard feelings. It's been a good run, but I see no reason to stay when the game has become a personal sniping match rather than fun. I also have no illusions that I will be a big loss. I'm sure someone will step right up and fill the gap. Sort of like that bucket of water thing. Stick your hand In a bucket of water and pull it out, what's the difference? Unfortunately though, water evaporates and no one seems to want to fill the bucket. That means given time you won't have water to stick your hand into. Be seeing you."
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Post by Braddoc on Jun 20, 2008 6:02:11 GMT -5
Well then, while I got a good feel that Wolf will explain his thing, I think he meant to doubt the existance of an 'outside agency' rather than the Retro's..Yet again, Enlisgh ain''T my first tongue, so, pitching in how I saw that.
And..there was noone on the grasy knoll; the driver shot him. (yeah no proff yet, since I am going to work, but I did read about it in a book.)
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Post by Crimson D on Jun 20, 2008 6:26:53 GMT -5
This isn't the first time I've stepped into a trap laid out for anyone to step into. I'm guilty of doing it a few times myself.
However I don't believe there is one person behind the retros. I do believe there is a group and have never doubted so. What little bit we do get I fully enjoy. I also wasn't fully aware of the level of crap you'd been taking. I don't read every single thread. However I feel your anger (lack of a better word) is fully justified.
However with that said and since we're discussing opinions here's mine.
We've all heard "Too much of a good thing is a bad thing." Well I also believe that "Too little of a good thing is a bad thing." Fatman does have a lot of stuff he's doesn't share. Why? What's the point of hording something everyone can enjoy? I also understand it may not be fatman but rather a group agreement to not share anything. Maybe it something I haven't considered in this post. What's the point? Popularity can be a pitfall, sure. Give too much you become bland and no one cares. However in this case it seems to be that giving too little has left your audience longing for more. Let's say the Retro's do pull away from this site. Will it stop people from hacking their sever? Of course not. If anything it'll drive them into a frenzy and maybe even increase the numbers of would be thieves.
What's the alliterative? Stop playing all together? Do that and they win. Surrender isn't a option. You'll simply anger some of the more die hard fans. (I'm not one of them.) Switch ISP's and pull a fade? Format all your hdd's in case someone planted tracking ware? If you got real crackers (not hackers) in your fan base they'll still find you. Keep going as you have and hope fans (and haters a-like) calm down? You could also consider having the whole group sitting down and giving a heart to heart with the site. Maybe if the readers fully understood from their point of view how stressing this is maybe some people who aren't hard headed might lay off a bit. Feed the beast? Give them everything till your bland and no one cares? This appears to be what your trying to avoid. There's also the middle ground. Leak more stuff.
These are only a few options the retros can consider. Whatever their choice, I will support them... oh and no hard feelings Pelch. I'm used to being a "fall guy."
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