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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Apr 16, 2006 0:51:12 GMT -5
Recently, I had time to really review some character sheets, due to my permisson problems.
Expogue, insisted he has all this expensive Hi-Tech equipment in his hideout while driving a Bike that costs four times more than he spent on his hideout. 7,000 NuYem for the hideout and 28,930 for the Bike?
Something seriously wrong here, folks. You can follow my comments and his with all his awesome rolls in the room 6 thread.
Sorry, but to me the amount he spent does not come anywhere near what he thinks he has! Maybe our character specialists need to look closely at this phase of the character sheet and spell it out more? Either way, Mr Johnson may have to step in here and make a ruling. With an income of Low, the expensive bike, training, and equipment I felt the need to raise this issue a bit.
Any other GM's want to give me their opinion on my ruling or am I being unfair?
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Post by krondax on Apr 16, 2006 2:13:35 GMT -5
thast all he spent? hmmm, might be a typo. 70k i coudl see, comming close, but not 7. no way in hell. well, wait. how much is sewer space goign to cost?
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Post by Porter on Apr 16, 2006 2:53:50 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to read all of it yet but I will.
The first thing I would say is when I look at the Character sheet, the background on the character is well....not too in depth. I definitely think this goes along with the potential problems listed.
Just a note on the bike, perhaps he is one of those folks who likes to go into debt paying for his ride and is a cheapo when it comes to other things like his living quarters. Or maybe the bike was part of a payment from a previous run. But this is where a detailed background or history could help explain a few things.
With that said, I do not think you are being unfair Pelch. It is something that should be explained and the answer should not be simply, well it is on my sheet.
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Apr 16, 2006 3:33:38 GMT -5
Well Krondax, it's a little too deep for sewer space. Especially in a downtown area, only about 6 blocks SOUTH of Westlake Mall. Sorry folks but I just don't think planted bombs in a downtown area waiting for some luckless and foolish animal or person to go by no matter how contained is not going to rattle some buildings and raise some eyebrows. Unless of course were terrorists in that case we are in good shape. Good comment though. Hi Porter, we haven't had much time to converse yet, Glad you came in, though. Thanks for the input. I really had no issue as such with the bike. It's documented pretty well. Heck he might have even stolen it as far as I know but since he did spend his initial money on it and it was approved by the character specialist it's OK with me. The problem is the difference in cost from the bike without all the Sec gear and the very small amount paid on his hideout. I have two major problems with Expogues hideout. The low cost vs what he says he has in it. The location area where it is located considering his description of it. Let's face it 3.5 MILES underground is a long way down even if it wasn't in a highly populated area. More so than any normal digging would go! Then there is ventilation, power, water, etc that would be required that deeply in the ground. Even the tunnel to get to it is a problem, Nothing ever mentioned an elevator and he drives bikes there which means he has tunneled under neighboring buildings without them having a clue? IF he is going to be permitted to have something to this extent then I have to get it in the storyline properly but right now it's not looking very good based on the facts I have investigated. I also consider too how he says everyone has to be pointblank to detect his explosives. I'm not buying it, especially considering something has to touch them off and the more scanning he has to do to detect intruders the more likely it is that they will be found by said intruder using non reg sanning gear. Or even a mage could probably pick his stuff out easily from the surrounding rock. Unfortunately expogue seems to be one of those people who think in absolutes. We all know that know security is FOOLPROOF.
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Post by Mr. Johnson on Apr 16, 2006 8:56:49 GMT -5
his hideout is 3.5 miles underground? uhmm.. that raises more issues than ventillation and power and what-nots... ill look into the matter
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2006 11:47:20 GMT -5
Okay, I have some thoughts... Firstly, Expgues character seems to have all the necessary skills to install all the required demolitions. Fair enough. What I failled to notice was the purchase of said explosives and the electronics to set up the booby traps. That raises a question in and of itself. Secondly. The only place I saw the 3.5 miles was in a descriptive post. Perhaps in the interest of being fair, we could say that that was a mistake as the player Expogue may not have a background in Civil engineering or local knowledge of Seattle or even perhaps knowledge of sewer systems. I DO have a background in Civil Engineering and agree that the logistics of a 3.5 mile deep hole are staggering and I think Expogue due to various conversations, may now realize that. Next. I always struggle with this myself since there are not really good guide lines anyware for what constitutes a relative location for each of the types of lifestyles. The closest thing I found was a reference associating Lifestyle with relative Lonestar Security ratings (AAA, would represent a luxury lifestyle, AA and A would be for High, etc etc...). Lonestar is not likely to let someone with a Squatter lifestyle be hanging around a AAA rated neighborhood. The residents just wouldnt stand for it. Thusly, I use this sort of a guideline and a very handy link for players and GMs alike to determine where my residences are. Here is the link. Even a Whizkids site. www.wizkidsgames.com/shadowrun/shadowland/article.asp?cid=37607This site lists, among other things, an area map with names of neighborhoods. Also supplied are the relative Lonestar Security ratings of said neighborhoods. A handy reference I have found, compiled from a few of the source books. I am not sure when the map is supposed to be set in the time line, but still useful for the overall period 2055-2068 I feel. Lastly, and this is most important. theshadowrun.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=ingamerules&action=display&n=1&thread=532I refer you to this link. Posted by Mr. Johnson himself. I don't feel the need for Pelch to even have to defend his decisions based on this. Both as a moderator and a player. If something doesn't happen to go your way this time, okay you are upset, angry, frustrated etc. Wait for a little while. You will probably catch a break next time around. This post also extolls the GMs, (thats us people) to not abuse his powers. It sounds like Pelch is apealing to the rest of us for clarification that this is not the case. Based on the way the information was presented, it didnt seem like the sanctuary was destroyed, blown up, violated (unless you consider being tapped a violation which it may well be), robbed, or otherwise disabled. I might have had someone trip the bombs and die, thus negating all your security anyways, and bringing lonestar over to ask some embarrasing questions...Same lesson, but you lose the hideout. Remember THE GM IS ALWAYS RIGHT!anyways, just some more input...
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Post by Porter on Apr 16, 2006 13:21:51 GMT -5
Ah that is what missed by not reading through the thread yet.
I can see where the concern would come in with the location of the hideout. I think the development of the hideout would need to come into question. Mainly for the pure logistics of it. To build such a location would cost a substantial amount of Nguyen and labor. This type of hideout is different than a character's normal safehouse, which could be another apartment and may only be safe guarded by a specialized maglock.
I think to deal with issues like this, it should be resolved at character creation. Expogue's problem could had been nipped in the bud and things could had been corrected to where Expogue would be satisfied an acceptable hideout.
I have seen smaller issues with this as well. Especially when it comes to equipment and the location of it. I feel characters should keep a list on their sheets as to where certain equipment is if they have a primary and secondary residence. This way it would prevent issues in the future.
A possible solution to this could be a background specialist? My thought is the character specialists are focused on the character creation in regard to if the sheets are compliant with the SR rules. how about when the character specialist goes through a new character sheet, they sent it to a background specialist who looks over the character sheet for issues like this hideout or feasibility of their contacts and location of equipment.
The problem from what I see with this problem is the specialist would not have known about the hideout details because it is not listed on the sheet. Maybe we to the lifestyle section, making sure the person states how many residences they have and a brief description if there are any 'special' additions to it.
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Post by jblack on Apr 16, 2006 15:22:33 GMT -5
Well, in my IRL game, we teamed up and pooled our resources to buy a hideout, an abandoned Jiffy Lube in Touristville, near the barrens. The GM decided it would be the equivalent of a HIGH lifestyle, and we've got the place paid up for a year.
This is a place that isn't underground, and we've made few modifications to (except for security equipment)
While I can certainly see the possibility that the player stole/acquired the bike, or that they have different priorities (equipment over lifestyle), I would also agree that paying ONLY 7K for it is a bit...ridiculous. 7k a month, maybe....
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Post by Mr. Johnson on Apr 16, 2006 23:26:28 GMT -5
history specialists is interesting.. the problem though is that members may have to wait a week instead of a few days...
the very first rule in ALL RPG games is that "The GM is ALWAYS right".. even if you dont like the call... arguing or getting upset only slows the game down... work around the obsticle.. you wanna go hang out at your apt.. but drek, the manager is bombing it for bugs that day.. then go to a coffee shop or something...
I know I dont need to say that this isnt real life... only an escape from it... we know that in life shit happens sometimes that makes us go WHAT THE FU**!! well... its no different when a GM makes a bad day for a char(s)... shit happens... but dont get devistated.. roleplay it.. and leave all that other stuff for the real world...
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Post by Ronilion on Apr 17, 2006 0:49:16 GMT -5
The deepest research bore-hole ever drilled was in Russia, on the Kola peninsula. Over a period of more than a decade a huge purpose-built rig drilled to over 12 kilometers to investigate the structure of the Continental Crust. That's about two miles! Checked out at the Guinness Book of World records!
Now that is just a RESEARCH hole, with no one living there. TEN YEARS, just to drill that far! I would say a living hideout, under a LARGE Metropolis city at 3.5 miles would be impossible in the SR world as well, especially by one guy. Sorry, I got to agree with Pelch.
In my opinion, Expoque is going to have to actually create and document his hideout and show where he spent the money and exactly what he has and where. I suspect the place is going to have to be radically revised.
I can see Pelch's problem, it has to be settled before he can continue. The hideout came to him on the sheet from the character specialists. He probably doesn't feel he has the RIGHT or Privilege to deny it. I agree it has to be Johnson's call since it is his site. That's my opinion.
I do know that Fatman would not have premitted the hideout to be granted unless it was documented for all to see. It is not fair to the other players if it is not. Davik/Expogue can SAY he has anything in it he wants, given by previous GM's, but his current GM has to see and approve it before he should be allowed to use it. We have all seen Monty Hall games and whatever he has has to fit in his current GM's game.
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Post by Ronilion on Apr 17, 2006 1:04:46 GMT -5
Here is some more interesting info, even for off shore drilling which only goes down about a mile.I mentioned this thread to Fatman and he laughed. He stated Seattle has docks and piers! It is a port city like New Orleans. To drill that deep, that close to the water would cause major problems in the water table alone. Not counting all the other issues Porter and Pelch have both raised. He then pointed me at this:
Fatman: "Drilling in the extreme temperatures and pressures beneath the ocean presents myriad technical challenges. For example, oil hot from the earth's core can become so cold upon reaching the sea bed that it can't move through pumps. This makes ultra-deep drilling exorbitantly expensive, with rigs often costing upwards of $1 billion. As a result, only the "supermajor" companies-such as Brazil's Petrobras, British Petroleum, Royal Dutch/Shell, ExxonMobil and ChevronTexaco-have sufficient resources to invest in ultra-deep research and development. Several smaller companies that provide equipment and other services to the industry also develop technology for ultra-deep drilling, although this is generally through contracts with larger companies."
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Angel
Shadowrunner
Branwen
Deny the Impossible
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Post by Angel on Apr 17, 2006 1:15:27 GMT -5
The problem at hand is that this site is a situation where you have characters established for the website, but lots of GMs running games involving the approved characters.
I can compare this to that of the Camarilla or One World By Night. Those are large games with 'chapters' in various cities, and thus run by several GMs. In theory, if you're a card carrying member, you can play your character in a game in say, Idaho, and then if you later move to Washington, you can go to that chapter and retain all your character's stats and gear without having to start over. So I can understand some of Expogue's frustrations, but again, it's Pelch's game.
In the end, what it really comes down to is that the sheets need to be scrutinized a bit better, or maybe the guidelines for sheets need to be clearer. It's a lot easier to keep something out than to throw it out later. Making players explain things does help in other ways, like for example, it's easier to visualize where someone lives if they post on their sheet "Abandoned warehouse in Redmond Barrens" than simply "low lifestyle".
Another problem is that once the characters are posted, how is the player able to edit their character's sheet if it was posted by someone else? If there was a way, I would have updated things like cash and equipment.
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Post by krondax on Apr 17, 2006 2:44:58 GMT -5
um, ronillion, you said 12 km, then 2 miles. 1.6 km is a mile. which is it
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Apr 17, 2006 3:01:11 GMT -5
I suspect he was rounding.
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Post by krondax on Apr 17, 2006 3:13:45 GMT -5
..... wait, pelch is a female?!
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