Post by Mr. Johnson on May 22, 2008 18:39:40 GMT -5
OOC: Pelch, "Sorry to delay posting a bit. I'll try to force it a bit. To high light some of what Headcrack and Wolflet said let's take it a step farther with a view on magic. I was way laid. Yes, I was shamelessly ambushed by both Mao and Freddy with comments on magic tonight. So let's post some of that out here."
Freddy: "but it seems that the number bits are becoming far far less important if at all - so we still need some kinda shape to the characters reminds me of 90s games Runequest Amber and tribe 8 even Crimson Skies recently.. all went away from the number mechanics thing and used a variety of descriptors for your characters which you then used in different circumstances.. steering players towards description instead of dice. "
OOC: Pelch, "My Apologies for the delay in my response, it appears the new medication I am on has had several serious side affects. I'll try to work through it."
"You point out the answers to your own questions. It is something that I have been trying to get all of you to understand since I started here. Numbers and standard game mechanics DO NOT WORK in this kind of environment. While the numbers still have their places. In the type of medium that requires communication, the ability to describe becomes paramount. Writing skill and Understandability are the watchwords for a successful interaction. It is not such a bad thing. You have to learn new skills of course, but more important you have to look at new ways of doing things! Many people out here while acknowledging the success of the thread are still reluctant to make that change. Not many people are willing to do so. It's to difficult to step out of a comfort zone."
"In this age of electronics and information the ability to communicate in this fashion is understandably more important when dealing with people." In point of fact you also have to perform a certain amount of CREATION. As you and Mao so pointed out it becomes important to have your abilities relate strongly to who you are and what you can describe. It has to be able to fit and it has to be explainable."
"In a world such as ours, in order to learn anything people have to agree on the basic concepts before they can even contemplate building something new. In this thread we are busily starting at the beginning and slowly getting everyone to agree on what we can accept. It is never an easy process, especially when each of us is locked into our local customs, mores, and thought patterns. Most of the worlds problems are usually caused by miscommunication of ideas and concepts that are perfectly acceptable and understood in one country, and yet are so foreign and insane sounding in another. Explaining your viewpoint correctly is essential before anyone can even begin to understand what is happening.They have to know the why's before they can answer the hows."
"So the magic use in this game is no different. The other players first HAVE to understand what you are trying to achieve. Your goal. (I've used that word a lot.) They have to understand the steps you are taking to achieve that goal. They have to believe the steps you have taken will lead you to that goal, and finally they have to see the finished product at work, or your goal in action. It has to do what you say it will do."
"The point of all this is I could give you my views on magic. I can explain my rational and the steps I took. I can show you it in action. However, it does me no good to explain the answers to you before you know the proper questions to raise. It is not that I am being obtuse on this. It is that you need to be able to conceptualize and forment your own solutions to the problem."
"While you try to 'pin me down' on my views of magic, you were still looking for the answer that matched your own view. I could explain till the cows came home and you probably wouldn't have had the EXPERIENCE to understand what I was saying. Not that you lack intelligence but you lack MY DIFFERENT experience in many of the concepts I assume are basic. They are to me, they may not be to you. Where will you relate to what I say and where will you bypass what to you sounds like gibberish? That is the crux of the matter. How much can I say that you will understand and retain. Thus I say some things and see what you do. Do you use the concept in your writing or do you go back to what you are comfortable with? All teachers have had this problem. The parrot affect is not what I want. I want to see you take a concept and show what you understand about it by using it your way."
"Besides my view may do you no good! You have to pick a method of magic you can work with and understand. For instance: You know of Shamanic and Hermetic magic. The accepted definitions are really lame in SR. I have heard Hermetics disparage Shamanics and vice versa in game without them really understanding anything about it even as supposed adepts!."
"Both sides when WRITTEN about in the various SR books seem capable of the same spells if they are good enough. So tell me the difference? In my concept there IS a difference and that difference is not based on whether you do a spell by a certain ritual that always works or you put a couple of extra dance steps in it to 'make it your own'. It's to fragging simple an explanation for the complex, DESCRIPTIVE, and thought rich game of instruction we are in and running. Players simply cannot afford to be lazy in such a setting. The most successful people are those that can explain and define what they are doing."
"So I am forcing you to question what you know of magic. I am forcing you to challenge your beliefs on how it works. I am forcing you to define your own concepts and make them UNDERSTANDABLE to the other players. The test of that is when they start using those concepts in their actions and then use it to build on what they are doing."
"I explained this to another group several years ago. If the other players are playing magical characters and their characters are using magic according to your views, then you have achieved something important in the game.They understand and ACCEPT your concept. They find it workable, believable and most of all UNDERSTANDABLE."
"In the ancient world magic was an art. It was not a set of theories. Each person performed what worked for them! Magic in each part of the world, magic has a different outlook and concept. Ask Mao. Chinese magic does not have the same practice as the magic of Merlin although in some cases they share basic concepts. Why should it not be so in our threads?"
Here in this realm we are creating uniqueness. Freddies style of magic should not look like Mao's style. When I get done with Quick? Cat's magic will not look like Mao's or Freddies. It is not going to look like normal shamanic magic as it is written in the book, that's too simply a numbers method which we KNOW will not work well here. Why should I just teach him a dance and it is a spell. That form of magic will not work for Quick because he doesn't find it usable for his character both in and out of game. Neither Quick nor Emyaj can undertsand that style of magic enough to be effective with it, except as a mechanical numbers style."
"You already realize that the numbers method will NOT work well here. It is to much done by rote! To develop his own style he is going to have to be shown a new way to do this so he can build on it. If one method does not work we try another until he can get it. He may after all this work, only understand Mao's style more than anything else. We shall see."
"Remember this, in magic, it is all about style and affect. To get what you want you have to be ready to explain and describe so others undertsand your concept."
Freddy: "but it seems that the number bits are becoming far far less important if at all - so we still need some kinda shape to the characters reminds me of 90s games Runequest Amber and tribe 8 even Crimson Skies recently.. all went away from the number mechanics thing and used a variety of descriptors for your characters which you then used in different circumstances.. steering players towards description instead of dice. "
OOC: Pelch, "My Apologies for the delay in my response, it appears the new medication I am on has had several serious side affects. I'll try to work through it."
"You point out the answers to your own questions. It is something that I have been trying to get all of you to understand since I started here. Numbers and standard game mechanics DO NOT WORK in this kind of environment. While the numbers still have their places. In the type of medium that requires communication, the ability to describe becomes paramount. Writing skill and Understandability are the watchwords for a successful interaction. It is not such a bad thing. You have to learn new skills of course, but more important you have to look at new ways of doing things! Many people out here while acknowledging the success of the thread are still reluctant to make that change. Not many people are willing to do so. It's to difficult to step out of a comfort zone."
"In this age of electronics and information the ability to communicate in this fashion is understandably more important when dealing with people." In point of fact you also have to perform a certain amount of CREATION. As you and Mao so pointed out it becomes important to have your abilities relate strongly to who you are and what you can describe. It has to be able to fit and it has to be explainable."
"In a world such as ours, in order to learn anything people have to agree on the basic concepts before they can even contemplate building something new. In this thread we are busily starting at the beginning and slowly getting everyone to agree on what we can accept. It is never an easy process, especially when each of us is locked into our local customs, mores, and thought patterns. Most of the worlds problems are usually caused by miscommunication of ideas and concepts that are perfectly acceptable and understood in one country, and yet are so foreign and insane sounding in another. Explaining your viewpoint correctly is essential before anyone can even begin to understand what is happening.They have to know the why's before they can answer the hows."
"So the magic use in this game is no different. The other players first HAVE to understand what you are trying to achieve. Your goal. (I've used that word a lot.) They have to understand the steps you are taking to achieve that goal. They have to believe the steps you have taken will lead you to that goal, and finally they have to see the finished product at work, or your goal in action. It has to do what you say it will do."
"The point of all this is I could give you my views on magic. I can explain my rational and the steps I took. I can show you it in action. However, it does me no good to explain the answers to you before you know the proper questions to raise. It is not that I am being obtuse on this. It is that you need to be able to conceptualize and forment your own solutions to the problem."
"While you try to 'pin me down' on my views of magic, you were still looking for the answer that matched your own view. I could explain till the cows came home and you probably wouldn't have had the EXPERIENCE to understand what I was saying. Not that you lack intelligence but you lack MY DIFFERENT experience in many of the concepts I assume are basic. They are to me, they may not be to you. Where will you relate to what I say and where will you bypass what to you sounds like gibberish? That is the crux of the matter. How much can I say that you will understand and retain. Thus I say some things and see what you do. Do you use the concept in your writing or do you go back to what you are comfortable with? All teachers have had this problem. The parrot affect is not what I want. I want to see you take a concept and show what you understand about it by using it your way."
"Besides my view may do you no good! You have to pick a method of magic you can work with and understand. For instance: You know of Shamanic and Hermetic magic. The accepted definitions are really lame in SR. I have heard Hermetics disparage Shamanics and vice versa in game without them really understanding anything about it even as supposed adepts!."
"Both sides when WRITTEN about in the various SR books seem capable of the same spells if they are good enough. So tell me the difference? In my concept there IS a difference and that difference is not based on whether you do a spell by a certain ritual that always works or you put a couple of extra dance steps in it to 'make it your own'. It's to fragging simple an explanation for the complex, DESCRIPTIVE, and thought rich game of instruction we are in and running. Players simply cannot afford to be lazy in such a setting. The most successful people are those that can explain and define what they are doing."
"So I am forcing you to question what you know of magic. I am forcing you to challenge your beliefs on how it works. I am forcing you to define your own concepts and make them UNDERSTANDABLE to the other players. The test of that is when they start using those concepts in their actions and then use it to build on what they are doing."
"I explained this to another group several years ago. If the other players are playing magical characters and their characters are using magic according to your views, then you have achieved something important in the game.They understand and ACCEPT your concept. They find it workable, believable and most of all UNDERSTANDABLE."
"In the ancient world magic was an art. It was not a set of theories. Each person performed what worked for them! Magic in each part of the world, magic has a different outlook and concept. Ask Mao. Chinese magic does not have the same practice as the magic of Merlin although in some cases they share basic concepts. Why should it not be so in our threads?"
Here in this realm we are creating uniqueness. Freddies style of magic should not look like Mao's style. When I get done with Quick? Cat's magic will not look like Mao's or Freddies. It is not going to look like normal shamanic magic as it is written in the book, that's too simply a numbers method which we KNOW will not work well here. Why should I just teach him a dance and it is a spell. That form of magic will not work for Quick because he doesn't find it usable for his character both in and out of game. Neither Quick nor Emyaj can undertsand that style of magic enough to be effective with it, except as a mechanical numbers style."
"You already realize that the numbers method will NOT work well here. It is to much done by rote! To develop his own style he is going to have to be shown a new way to do this so he can build on it. If one method does not work we try another until he can get it. He may after all this work, only understand Mao's style more than anything else. We shall see."
"Remember this, in magic, it is all about style and affect. To get what you want you have to be ready to explain and describe so others undertsand your concept."