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Post by Crimson D on Jul 30, 2008 12:06:46 GMT -5
I got a chance to look at mits finally. I want to try using three different radicals. One unit of (radicals) copper, silver and crystal = 2,000
It'll cut karma costs. First binding isn't easy on karma.
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meg
Shadowrunner
Meg
shp(o~3000;; b~0;; i~0;; u~0;; s~0;; a~0;; )
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Post by meg on Jul 30, 2008 13:05:33 GMT -5
Look at the amendments I have introduced to alchemy - there are some long discussions on cost of creating articles - basically if they cost so much more to make on a 1st binding, they would be far far easier to rip off someone else and rebind
I have said (in my wisdom) that the SR rules plucked numbers from the air - so instead of using the 1st binding costs - use the standard binding costs instead. These can still be augmented by alchemy and orichalcum. Also, use the Atlantis oil 1 dose for each force of any weapon. upps the amount of oil and makes magical weaponry tougher to find and buy.
have a look in 'Background' for alchemical research and creation...
Problem is you may have a weak alchemy skill meaning it will be tough making anything.. try it out ! do some number crunching and look into the time you may need
Your thoughts harken back to the bus trip a while ago when Meg met you at Angel Falls in her flying bucket - the earth elementals and the wraith.. - she buzzed off with the boxes of metal bar and crystal. There is metal ore collected by the students - and quite a lot in plas boxes - along with refined metal - but no radicals in sight.
Meg is currently getting the students to crush and refine and sift their basketfulls of collected stuffs. You think that once they have got the hang of it they will be working for a couple of weeks with little need for intensive supervision. There is an indication that low force items could be researched - she seems quite ameinable to the idea of any of you creating a focus.
see how that number crunching goes ! I think that it will be time that restricts you.
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Post by Crimson D on Jul 31, 2008 11:40:06 GMT -5
Your telling me Meg has a huge complex that's refining stuff but not making radicals? There's no way she could stay in business. Radicals are the bread and butter of the refining world.
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Post by Braddoc on Jul 31, 2008 12:33:08 GMT -5
Radicals?....but Meg's in magical alchemy, not mathematics!
Hehehehehehehehe.......
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meg
Shadowrunner
Meg
shp(o~3000;; b~0;; i~0;; u~0;; s~0;; a~0;; )
I have made 255 posts
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Post by meg on Aug 1, 2008 7:43:10 GMT -5
Radicals represent weeks of work - it is what the students will be creating next month.. currently they are refining their materials - the metalics need a shop to crunch them properly - you can do only so much with a kit..
Yes Meg does have radicals - as she explains.. Radicals are tough to create as they take time and are worth little on the open market - but they are as Shade ponts out the bread and butter work of Alchemy.. in fact the major suppliers frown on open trade in any magical components preferring to operate a bartering system - that is the point of view from Aztechnology. They want to keep a lid on things. Personal consumables will always be around - it is when people look to putting 10 radicals of gold out for sale in one batch for half a million that stirs things up. I am looking to have a dozen students create refined material and radical materials too - for use later on. Ther should be a lot available in a couple of months.
In the meantime I do have what you require.. what is your estimate on time? Do you think that you can accomplish the task?
Meg is asking from an academic point of view - once Shade has a good idea about the numbers and the time and can otline these, Meg seems quite happy to be able to provide the materials...
Shade looks around - the venture is new - there is a lot of new glassware around - fresh boxes and crates - packaging in bins. She has just started off in this place... so from the 'production' side of things - this is all brand new.
A lot falls into place - Meg has had quite a few holes in the procedures - seems to be running on new people - there is a plan in place but that too is new and being adapted .. she mentioned looking out for outside influence as she expected it.. if this had been running for years there would be entrenched allies and opponents alike.. it is all rand new.
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Post by Braddoc on Aug 1, 2008 10:58:41 GMT -5
I suppose Wrench got some electronics B/R skills...so at least he can rig our comms to have better encryption...and he spotted weaknesses too!.
Yeah...that trial's just to see how well you can handle a piece, your nomral weapon (drones for Wrench, bow for Tranq) and then some sparring with Tranq and Bishop while Wrench can have a run down of the soft points in the place...all good?
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Post by Crimson D on Aug 1, 2008 12:20:02 GMT -5
we're using standard binding costs, does that mean the standard time of hours as well?
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Post by Crimson D on Aug 1, 2008 12:21:25 GMT -5
OOps, also. It's gonna be a F3 spirit foci
Also, since we pay differnances for upgrading spells, are we doing the same for foci upgrading? And if so, does the negative cost's apply each time or only the first time?
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Post by wolflet59 on Aug 1, 2008 13:54:08 GMT -5
I suppose the idea of upgrading a focus would be that it is work in progress - SR seems to imply that you create a finished item - that is it.. completely bonded. makes life easy I suppose. I see nothing wrong with improving this - you resmelt or reforge the magic and add effects
costs bonusses and time ought to be calculated from the original materials - the minimum Karma is the Force so a Spirit 3 focus will cost you 3 karma plus the enchanting time plus materials
eg F=3 so 3x radicals
a single batch of radicals would take 1 month to make so you can see the cost of a paltry few thou yen for radicals becomes rediculous.. radicals take one month to make and there is an equivalent of 100,000 yen to hire a good alchemist for that period - which is why you hire on lackeys to make radicals for you..
spirit focus target =6 +3(F) +OR of materials natural cloth= 3 = 12- 4 for three radicals = TN8 -1 for good tools(a whole workshop) TN7 An Alchemist with a skill of 6 should be able to bond this in a month at a cost of 2xF = 6 - 4 for three radicals = 2 however a minimum of force, so 3 Karma in one month. Could be less with some luck
however without the alchemy skill you cannot fathom out how to assemble the components. unless you want to use talismongering at an increased difficulty.. The students are too busy.
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Post by Crimson D on Aug 1, 2008 14:36:43 GMT -5
-4 (3 units of radcails, different types) -1 Virgin telsma (hand made robe)
I was wondering. Would it make sense for mages to have a ritual to transfer their power to another mage to take on the enchanting for them?
Also, enchanters (artafacters) make foci not alchemists.
I'm trying to find a way to get someone else to do the hard parts. Since i'm bust'in ass to do the leg work and gather stuff to make it happen.
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Post by wolflet59 on Aug 1, 2008 17:41:43 GMT -5
Enchanting is the base for all creation of any magics - alchemy is a sub-skill along with artificing.. the general term of Alchemist is given to those who create arcaery
Universities bestow Doctor of Philosophie or equivalent depending on the institution
Enchanting is personal you do.. create.. you invest the time and karma...
Virgin is - you doin the collect, spinning then weaving...
What you are looking at is becoming involved in the power investment - a piece of your soul connected to the item... rather than the construction.. What you need is to get hold of someone who deals with created dormant items who can find a dormant item for you which you can pick up an rejuvinate with power....
(OOC magic gear tends to become an extra pool to premote your own skills - fraggin useful an fraggin rare because if you got it you use it! weapons are your own personal items and are very powerful - mages will detect them instantly unless boxed
A while back CrimsonD noted that I 'declaw' people - well yess I do - but it does go both ways... problem with any magics is that they focuss/expand one character's skills with ease. Rip out anyone 's eyes with a visual magnifier that drops range problems to a big zero so you are always at short range.. It is trying to create a balance forged through blood sweat an tear..ing the arms off the opposition.
easy peasy givaway dont get you what you really want - an this isnt a criticism of Shade's recent questioning which is well worked out and exploring - it really is what you guys put in, what you know you deserve because of the ideas an effort. F-E is forging his own path linking in with contacts buzzin round doin stuff - thats why he is regarded as a fixer.. not just an ordinary runner
the answer to Shades predicament is to provide a balance.. yen is a big equivicator...but not the only one.. Look at Micro who is pushing forward getting into contacts and getting pointed in An direction.
Shade has a background that he can draw on - and it goes deep ... what else may it involve..
What are characters willing to release or invest to premote themselves in the storyline .. yen secrets, artifacts, knowledge?
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Post by Crimson D on Aug 1, 2008 19:38:02 GMT -5
I dunno what to say... I'm outraged. virgin telsma is hand made. That's like saying you can't use a program because i wrote it. I'm betting there are witches who sit around doing nothing but making robes by hand. Making virgin telsma is big bussniess.
Also, tailsingling shops sell foci of all types. You can also take another mages foci and bind to your self. The way your describing enchanting would make that imposable. I understand better then most how personal magic is but your ripping out the core of modern mage society.
If it were this difficult to be a mundane in your game, everyone would be making guns by hand. Your nerfing the bussniess of being a mage for the personal part of being a mage. If you keep at this rate wolf, the mages will never get anything done.
EDIT: Also there's a place in mits where it enplanes a enchanter can bond a foci to another person during the creating the foci. Which I take to mean that you only need to be there for the last few hours of it's final process.
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Post by wolflet59 on Aug 4, 2008 19:03:51 GMT -5
Dear outraged.. (reminds me of Kenny Everett tapping on the screen with his brolly!) I do agree with a lot - A reason for making it tough is to get characters writing up their own experiments and hard work, so the bigger stuff that they own, means more to them. Yes you probably could go out and buy off the shelf a F3 power focus for a lot of grand - because you have earned that yen in some other way.
Around you is the buildup of how (I think) making magic ought to start.. OK it is from the very beginning but the students have now learnt about talislinging and have camped out in the wilds in order to gather in the basics- have started to crunch the stuff up - under protest!
next phase is refining which shouldnt take long then radicals - atlantis metal then power focii.. they will deserve their status of Alchemist by the end of all of this - and players will appreciate that it does grow on trees - but then takes a lot to get it into the right end result!
It is the creation of story that is important - tracking down the items or the snippetts of information which will lead to something more. You could create it all by hand or hunt it down as part of your own storyline. There is now more downtime available as you are no longer 24/7
Magic shops and emporiums will stock items - My POV has been that if someone has a couple of power focii and a weapon or two - the guy is worth a few million and will then require the backup to protect it.. - I suppose the same could be said about a Gunshop...
I think of bigger items as being tough to track down with a few shady deals required to follow that trail.. rather than being easy to find but expensive to buy (there is a good film 'The Ninth Gate' where the bookbuyer is tracking down the manuscript.. you dont have to go that far though..)
small stuff shouldnt be a problem - easy to make easy to buy - one problem is how SR just plucked costs from the air - a power focus is judged on it's usefulness to the mage not on the effort taken to create it.. in fact they are quite easy to make along with most low force 1 & 2 items IF you have all the gear assembled. (bigger is a lot tougher.)
Hope this gives you a little more idea of the way I am thinking - it also gets me thinking about your character progress and what you want from the game - it is about a balance between us..
I dont mean to stop you getting hold of stuff you guys want - I wanted to demonstrate that the process is difficult (I do think there was a lot just plucked from the air for magic in SR).
Do you recon I have gone over the top the other way.. a sort of survivalist SR... food for thought for me.. I do try to keep limits on things - as you noted a while back - 'declawing' .. I have always seen magic as a rarity - as a cottage industry at best - maybe I am too restrictive or looking at things from the one side rather taking more into account..
so how to redress the imbalance.. open up more plotlines that could be followed to promote cash and power.... give more opportunity or accessibility to mil-spec kit and magics.. Well your opponents have been getting progressivly tougher so you could justify juicy rewards...
what do people think?
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Post by wombat on Aug 4, 2008 19:10:50 GMT -5
just a short one cos it's 1am here and i just scanned your last message wolf, but i for one like the way you run things - the survivalist way. better that things are too tough than too easy
i think that a person running a char as "uber" as shade is coming from an odd place when they talk about declawing, cos i've not seen shade run into difficulties yet - he pretty much seems able to do whatever he wants with whatever spell he wants to do it with
degodding may be a more suitable term, non?
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Post by Crimson D on Aug 4, 2008 19:23:02 GMT -5
I'd like to able to hire a enchanter as the book suggests. It takes shade out for a while since he'll have to be there for the ritual. Yes keep in mind enchanting is a ritual and by defnishin rituals can have multiple partiapents.
Your POV was/is destroying game balance. Even mages have to hire people that can do things they can't. I never meant for shade to be a foci maker but your attempting to force my char in a direction i did not intend.
EDIT: Shade uber? lol Ok i got to hear you explain that one. As for spells keep in mind i've dumped a lot of karma into spells. Also keep in mind i've been playing SR3 for 11 years. 9 of those were GMing. Experance helps.
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