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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Sept 21, 2006 4:17:48 GMT -5
OOC: Pelch, "I have been thinking about creating this particular thread for those of us who wish to make a point, or discuss ideas in the groups. You can also use it to voice, peeves, rants or just blow off steam. You can also use it to get players votes or even ask other players opinions. Feel free to use it when you want to say something."
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Post by gremlin on Sept 21, 2006 11:16:32 GMT -5
OOC: MEDIC!! That thread over there may be dying, quickly now! You there officer, arrest that man for wounding without intent *points to a mirror*
Ok, seriously now. First let me apologise to everyone for delaying the game, that wasn't my intent. Another option that Pelch kindly/politely/diplomatically didn't mention is for me to remove Henri from the game, as it was me that's caused the hassle in the first place.
Second, unplausable as this might seem at the moment, I don't have a problem with Pelch being a PC & GM at the same time. Pelch has stated that his his views, wishes etc as GM are not being voiced through IC Pelch and I see no reason to doubt him. IC Pelch seems to have been designed as an disagreeable little git and let's face it, life'd be boring without little IC conflicts now & then. There's also the fact he's a central figure in the current story.
My question appears to have been taken the wrong way, but looking back I suspect that's more to do with the way I phrased the question than anything else. I really should post after work when I don't have any time constraints. I wasn't trying to call Pelch's fairness as a GM into question. I'll try again & hopefully won't make such an ass of it this time.
What I meant was, GM Pelch seems to have been dropping hints that the group really should learn to work together and get the story moving, while using IC Pelch to give us obstacles to work around, BB's lack of experience hasn't caused any agro...yet. Fair enough. But when we finally get our act together and start to mesh as a team, won't IC Pelch's antics mean we spend more time clearing up the cacky & less time progressing with whatever story GM Pelch has in mind. So by 'conflict of interest' I meant Pelch's role as GM in keeping the story moving and Pelch's role as a player, staying faithful to his character's personality.
This question's largely been prompted by my experiences as a PnP player back when I got Wombat hooked on D&D. We had a player who caused agro that took ages to clear up instead of seeing to the story. You remember Simon dont ya Wombat?
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Post by Mao on Sept 21, 2006 14:54:57 GMT -5
OOC:
Hrm...forgive me if I'm wrong...but Pelch is supposedly a character...and if played right suppose to be like an actual character as best one can be played like any other character in a rpg...
Due to the current circumstances Pelch's feelings/sentiments make sense to me...but I doubt they'll continue when those circumstances change. Meaning if we finally work as a team..I doubt Pelch would feel such sentiments and would worry about something else...such as making a grab for more money...making widow's life even harder...etc...etc.
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Post by wombat on Sept 21, 2006 18:47:00 GMT -5
Simon, warrior princess?
FWIW, i think this is just a poorly phrased question that's run out of control. It's let a long and fruitful life, so let's make it as comfortable as we can before we put it to sleep - who's with me? *raises hand for a todd-five*
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Sept 21, 2006 19:36:16 GMT -5
Actually you all pretty much have it bang on. It's probably just me being touchy because it does bother me to run a character in a game I am moderating. It has seemed to me be a trifle unfair to all of you as well, but you have been very understanding and supportive. I see no reason for Henri to depart. He did no more than quite properly point out a problem that I have been trying to decide how to negate. I just haven't thought it all through yet.
To be perfectly frank about it, I had hoped that Gremlin was forcing the issue a bit for me. I should be devoting my talent to either full time moderation or playing, but definitely not both in the same thread, in my considered opinion. It has been preying on my mind for some time. Probably made me a bit too touchy on the subject. ;D
If you guys don't mind then, we will keep going as we are and will revisit this question again if it becomes a problem for anyone. To be honest it would be VERY EASY to write my character out and continue moderating. (I'd let Wheels have first crack at planting a bomb on me. He deserves that after all the bombs I have used on him. I know he could be very descriptive and would have some fun with it.)
To make it very clear, this was NOT in any way Gremlin's fault! I see no need for him to leave the game. I thought he handled the comments extremely well and I still believe it was an excellent point. We have side stepped the issue for now, but I will continue to look for a solution. Mao also has come to know me pretty well. He has Pelch figured out pretty well. So has Gremlin. I purposely designed Pelch to BE an IRRITANT. He is an exasperating, grating, galling, annoying and frustrating little sod. He was supposed to be, to give the players plenty to do. As long as you have him around he will constantly be pulling when everyone else is pushing and will be heartily and nosily pushing when everyone is pulling. He will have an opinion on everything that happens. Sometimes he will be correct, more often he will be totally out in left field. If you can live with that fine. If you can't may I heartily recommend you shoot him right between the eyes, and then see if Lone Star will pay the bounty on his hide. You might actually make a profit on the deal somewhere.
As for Wombat, "Order me a PINT, Mate."
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Post by wombat on Sept 21, 2006 19:57:34 GMT -5
lol, is that like an abbreviation for something? :S
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Post by Wheels on Sept 24, 2006 15:35:03 GMT -5
Hey gang, finally back and reorganized after my funeral out of town. Got back just in time for another one in town. Thank you all for your thoughts and prayers and expressions of condolences.
I've been giving this matter and others some thought, and decided to express my particular feelings on the current status of stalled in our, up to recently, very fun, amusing and otherwise thought provoking and forward moving thread.
From my perspective, I agree with Gremlin that I have no problem with Pelch both Moderating and running a character in the thread. I too, have identified that Pelch the character was designed to be as Pelch himself described, an Irritant, etc etc. This is fine with me, as it makes for colourful roleplaying, and we've had a lot of that and its great. It plays very much to the more flowing style of Online Play By Posting that Pelch, Johnson, and others have been trying to achieve. However, the conflict between Pelch the Moderator and Pelch the Character, as I see it, has lead us to getting not too far. An example:
On a couple of occasions, Pelch the character has done something, that, APPEARS to be one way, then, Pelch the Moderator kicks in, and shows us that what APPEARED to be, was not actually the way it was. (I refer to the watch/guard rotation incident in particular, bt there were others in the past). Again, I'd like to stress that this is very colorful, very story driven, and very well written by Pelch. (Wheels bows to Pelch)
However, this, I believe, has led us to not trust anything that Pelch the Moderator has given us as "information". Leading us to not accomplish as much as we'd like. Which leads me to my next point.
Originally as I understood it, this thread was supposed to be a minimally moderated thread, in that EVERYONE was supposed to be contributing to the story line. It even started off that way for me in particular, because I could and still can contribute outside stuff to the storyline that affects what happens to the party. HOWEVER, looking back, most of the external stuff I added, didn't really directly help the story line, without substantial thought and effort of everyone else, Pelch more specifically. The external input forced him to adapt what others were writing to A storyline. And herein lies the crux to MY particular problem in the thread.
Pelch is the only one who can see what the STORYLINE is about. Now if Pelch would like to Moderate/GM the thread that is fine. I have no problem running under his Game Mastering skills. But if the thread is supposed to be a Group Effort, perhaps some OOC discussions are in order.
I propose the following discussions in the event that this thread is supposed to be the latter of the two choices above:
1. What exactly is everyone's, and more specifically Pelch's concept of team work? (I propose Pelch's concept, as he has taken on the role of Moderator and seems to be wanting us to work towards something specific, which to me, it seems like we aren't accomplishing)
2. What exactly is the Team's objectives?
3. OOC where is the storyline going?
This last I propose, so that we ALL as a group can add stuff to the storyline. I find I can't further the storyline, since I have no concept of who or what we are up against. The clues, I'm sure are in there, but as a player I'm having a hard time linking them, since, many times Pelch has pointed out that things are not all as they seem. In addition, several of the clues, MY character in particular is not aware of, due to various reasons. This leaves me kind of stranded in limbo.
I throw this out for discussion...
Wheels
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Post by gremlin on Sept 24, 2006 20:59:35 GMT -5
Ok...this is what I think. 1. I'd say teamwork is us all pulling in the same direction to achieve something. I guess this might also mean a bit of cross-training on some of our parts so skills aren't unique to one person. I'm assuming I don't need to explain that one. We could probably do with identifying our weak areas where we're lacking expertise & decide who's best to cover them. Which leads us to... 2. We need to stop arseing about & work as a team. We need to be sure Smythe isn't listening in anymore. (Personally, I'd like to just erase the bugger, but hey that'd require erm...whatsitcalled...oh yeah, teamwork ). We need to I.D the bug boy & his chromed buddy. We need to find the mad bomber and go for some ironic revenge, the under the bridge scene from Man on Fire anyone? We need to make progress ASAP to convince JJ we're worth the cash they're shelling out for us each month. 3. I'd say this depends on the general storyline Pelch had in mind to start with & how successful we are at achieving our objectives...once we decide what they are.
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Post by krondax on Sept 25, 2006 2:00:36 GMT -5
appolyg time here. i have been heling out a friend who is moving in here for a month. kinda busy. cant reply tonight, will try and do some reading over though, tonight and tomorrow.
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Sept 25, 2006 2:03:56 GMT -5
OK, Wheels has asked a good question. Let's examine that for a moment. He wants to know specifically, "Pelch's concept of team work?"This is where we have to be very careful. Pelch the player character is one thing, Pelch the Moderator/GM is another. It may SEEM like splitting hairs here but you have to be aware that as a moderator I have to take MANY viewpoints when I run NPC's, characters, or antagonists. Each has a carefully crafted view. It can make you somewhat split-brained. Now for the sake of this discussion, I will ASSUME that Wheels wants a moderator view.
Unfortunately, while it seems to get to the heart of the problem, it really doesn't. A moderators view does him little good. Why? Teamwork is based on the GROUPS accomplishments not the Moderator's view! When the team accomplishes the goals it sets, has a good strategy, and thinks their way through the puzzles that is teamwork. From the moderator's view the team has to BE effective but the moderator must be very careful about doing do much FOR the team. The moderator CANNOT be a crutch for the team.
If the team is not effective the game lags and there is little any moderator can do without seriously compromising their game. It is up to the LEADER to supply this need, not a GM or Moderator. You see I contemplate several problems here. Players are at varied levels of playing ability. Most are individualists. Most leaders are woefully untrained and struggle with these individuals with no REAL aid for learning or support. The GM does help occasionally but can only help so much. Many times he can hint or advise but must be very cautious of mixing in outside his own storyline or game concept. Leaders learn to lead through experience! No one is born an instant leader. You learn by doing and making mistakes. That is why the Donald Trump apprentices having the same difficulty! You have to be ready to accept mistakes by the leaders so they learn. You can't fire them the first time they make a mistake and gain anything!
So we have to approach this impasse as more of a leadership problem than a game concept problem. First what is teamwork? It helps when we are all working on the same knowledge and definitions! Since Wheels specifically asked for MY view, I'll give that but you need to examine your view as well to see how it fits.
'PLEASE' don't say it's a team working together. That is like a school kid saying that Caesar was the salad dressing dude.
You see, many think of teamwork as 21'st century corporate speak and that's it. It means that you say nothing and 'Yes' man everything to be seen as a 'team player'. It's mostly meaningless hoop kissing rhetoric! There is more involved in that.
The first thing is that no matter how many members (obviously two or more) It has to be a COOPERATIVE Effort! Teamwork requires clearly identified and separately evaluated responsibilities for each team member as well as a specified and valuable outcome. Team members are assessed on the quality of the product, the quality of their contributions to the team effort as well as the quality of the completion of their individually assigned tasks.
Get the picture? Quality! Now here is the kicker from the Pelch player view, The whole group has to be focused on ONE problem till it is solved! So far we have had to much gallivanting and lone wolfing around. Too many rugged individualists that can't be controlled enough until they learn the right techniques and give the leadership a chance to LEARN to lead!! Now we all know that Pelch the player will be pulling against a team effort. Why? He is loner! Most of the current player characters are! Quick tends to be a loner, Mao certainly tends to be a loner. Wheels is definitely a loner. Pelch is a loner's loner. This means that just by being in character they will have a continuing tendency to work at cross purposes to a group effort unless they are taught a new method or technique and you CAN'T teach them if they are not part of the group, contributing to that group and being rewarded for that contribution.
BB on the other hand IS a team player. Now let's see the others assess their character's attitude. Are you a group player or an individual doing things pretty much on your own?
Let us look at some things we NEED to accomplish as part of the TEAM. Now I have to talk from Pelch the character position, still so don't get confused.
Widow establishes ONE GOAL at a time. The WHOLE GROUP works on that goal until we solve it. THEN we move on. You see our problem is that we are all trying to move to fast. We want instant results. We get impatient! We make STUPID and OBVIOUS mistakes. Until we learn to work as a group we will not progress and we can't LEARN to work as a group if we are all constantly split apart working on different things at different rates of speed. WE REQUIRE 'JOINT' action by the group to complete a given task. WIDOW has to decide the importance of the tasks and then decide what order to do things and when to move on!
She has to assess how well we perform, what each persons contribution was, how useful it was and how effective. Then those people need to be rewarded! She has to start from the beginning and teach the group that individual interests are subordinated to group unity and efficiency; coordinated, and focused effort no matter how slow will net gains not speed. I have given that hint several times when Widow talked to the group early in the thread and when she dealt with JJ. Speed is NOT the game.
Having a controlled, coordinated use of the team is required if you wish to get a Quality result. That means as characters we have to let go of our PERSONAL whims and wants and learn to subordinate them in a group purpose, but Widow is going to have to retrain the group to DO that in game!
Picture a large ring. We are all standing outside with both hands pulling on the ring in our direction. How far will we get? To all pull in the same direction though, a specific Single goal must be given, thought out, and solved before you move on.
As a group we have many goals and many tasks, but how successful have we been in getting them done?
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Sept 27, 2006 2:53:08 GMT -5
OOC: Pelch, "Why is it when the threads 'heat up' I get Private mail even from non players wanting to hear the inside scoop? For instance in the UGR thread one non-player asked me 'If Angel wasn't planning on actually bumping ugly with the elf, why the frag did she follow him into such an obvious trap?"
Now I don't want to be rude but maybe he should have asked the player for Angel's character that? Of course if such people would read the thread carefully they might have picked up on the clue's that Angel obviously did! Anyway I spent twenty minutes explaining the clues and why. That was not the only PM. I got one where they asked 'Why BRADDOC as POPS was 'allowed' to kill Pelch! Aren't player characters not allowed to kill people off in your game?" Then he followed it with, "What do you intend to do about it?" First it is true that normally player characters are not allowed to kill the other members but there is no rule against it if the thread supports a killing. I would say Braddoc had good reason for what he did, after all I instigated it didn't I? So is he going to be 'PUNE-ISHED like the big Gungan says?" Heck NO! I'm going to have some fun with it. So many possibilities have opened for this bit of Chaos that it could redirect the plot but not the ending, if you get my drift. For instance, maybe I'll come back as a free spirit and mess with everyone, especially Mao who can see me. After all I was possessed. Given that my character was running people down why shouldn't Braddoc have the right to protect himself. I'm a GM, I'll play on inconsistencies in the story line to work it around. If they are that interested in finding out why things happen, I suggest they get in and play and enjoy the action first hand. make sure though that you can handle the style and the give and take. No supermen here! Seriously though folks, while the interest is gratifying and nice. The workload is daunting. I have several character histories I am working on. I'm handling the PM's of player characters who are consulting or wanting me to elaborate. They come first. Then the histories and then whatever else. It took me more than eight hours to get through all this tonight. Let's do the dead dwarf a favor. If you are not in the thread and want to know why a player did what they did, ask them to explain it. If you are so interested in what is happening in the game and want that kind of access then why not join and become a part of the action? Not to be rude, but I feel I owe it to the players and the History group to do my job for them without being distracted. If I have time I will attempt to explain the plot line a bit but don't be surprised if you get a short answer. It's not that I'm discouraging you, it's that my priorities are elsewhere.
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Post by Braddoc on Sept 27, 2006 5:48:23 GMT -5
Oh well, wan't really trying to kill you there Pelch..The HTR did spot a Docwagon bracelet on you, and not a cheap one..(Sure, ain't in Pelch's inventory, but I do recall seeing Pelch with one, like a billion posts ago) That can always bail you out from the reaper, maybe get you in an electric wheel-chair for a while during your recuperation, ramming people in the back of their knees with it.
But hey, if you want to make Pelch a spirit while his meat is in a comatose state or whatever,, or 6 feet under, I"m not gonna stop ya', your char your way to go.
Oh well read today's posts..Well, seems you are either aken by the baddies, or soem mysterious penefactor..
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Sept 27, 2006 6:50:00 GMT -5
OOC: Pelch, "It was Freddy wanting us to get Doc Wagon accounts as I recall. Pelch would have probably pawned it not knowing the real value of the thing. He is a stupid GIT isn't he?
That's Okay, like I stated you had the right and if I can't handle it then I deserve to get my arse lifted.
I was thinking of making off with Mao's hat at the same time, but it would have been a dead giveaway. How could I explain it if the Star if you saw me taking his hat as a souvenir?"
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Post by Mao on Sept 27, 2006 11:13:10 GMT -5
OOC: Oh great...so now you're going to "haunt" me...that or you're going to pull that obi wan kenobi force spirit gimmick aren't you? I ain't going to let you off that easily bro. You still have work to do.
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Post by Pelch Gobwit on Sept 28, 2006 3:03:34 GMT -5
Well I asked non players to stop asking me story line questions. So of course I got TWICE as many requests from them as last night. Me and my BIG FAT MOUTH. Maybe I should have invited LOTS of comments and then I would have been ignored. Four hours and counting just answering PM's. "Use the Force, Mao" That was one thing you have to admire about Jedi. Old OBI WAN was told to take out Darth so he walks away leaving the blighter alive and then tells the guy's SON he has to go kill Daddy for him and raises a fuss when the kid says I can't do that.
Then Daddy suicides because he loves the kid he never met so much and because of Daddy's great love he kills his buddy the emperor so now no one has to get their hands dirty? Typical Liberal view I guess. No one is to blame for anything. This is the guy that kills kids but gets to Jedi heaven because he backstabs both his teachers? Not a good job being a teacher I guess. Anyways, Spare me the drek.
In this instance though Mao, it means I get to make YOU do all the work while I sit in my arrogant, elitist perch and tell you what a screw up you are. This could work out better than I thought, young Padawan.
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